"Roy Schestowitz" <newsgroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1269073.NsFXugrWAM@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> __/ [ Oliver Wong ] on Wednesday 31 January 2007 20:54 \__
>
>>
>> "Roy Schestowitz" <newsgroups@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:2437145.qR15vJsMxu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Don't spread FUD about Vista
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>> | We don't need to go out forging stories about how Vista is crap and
>>> | all that. Vista should do this all by itself. Let the people have the
>>> | facts, real facts, and then decide for themselves what they really
>>> | want. Instead of shoving the Ubuntu download down their throats
>>> | doing everything we can to prevent them from even having a look
>>> | at Vista (really, its price tag actually does enough here) we
>>> | should let them have a balanced look at both and decide what
>>> | they really want.
>>> |
>>> | [...]
>>> |
>>> | I promise you GNU/Linux will be winning people hands down by merit
>>> alone,
>>> | no FUD necessary, not even persuasion. When they open their new shiny
>>> | windows, they will see the beauty of GNU/Linux freedom and desire to
>>> have
>>> | it.
>>> `----
>>>
>>> http://www.nuxified.org/static/dont_spread_fud_about_vista.html
>>>
>>> Of course, the same rules do not apply to COLA where Microsoft
>>> astroturfers
>>> bash Linux. Being a Linux newsgroups, you see, if they came here to just
>>> sing the merits of Windows, it would be off-topic, not just adverse to
>>> the
>>> Charter. Therefore, in my humble opinion, until the shills depart from
>>> this
>>> newsgroups, criticism of Windows (even Mac) unfortunately seems
>>> justified
>>> reasonable.
>>
>> Do you feel spreading FUD, or "forging stories", about Vista is
>> justified? One can criticize Vista while still remaining factual.
>
>
> I do try to remain factual. I pay careful attention to flaws while not
> spending much effort praising virtues and merits. It's an advocacy
> newsgroup, so balance is not important. It's not journalism and the
> address/Charter of the group prepares its reader and states what it's
> intended for.
I'm not sure what you're implying by the "It's not journalism" remark,
but I agree that balance is not important. I'm not saying we should give
equal weight to Linux and Vista within this newsgroup. I'm saying there are
two issues with the anti-Vista posts I've been seeing late:
First of all, bashing Vista (or any Microsoft related thing) is not
really a form of Linux advocacy, so right away we're off topic. But that's
okay, because a lot of newsgroups drift off topic a bit. In the Java groups,
we occasionally talk about HTML, or C++, or Flash, or the job market, or
linguistics, etc. A bit of topic drift is okay, as long as the main topic of
discussion remains Java in that group's case, or Linux in this group's case.
Second of all, even if we accept Vista-bashing as appropriate in a Linux
advocacy group, we should not accept lies as being appropriate. If you're
going to criticize Vista, at least try to be factually correct about it.
[...]
>> The "he started it!" philosophy is problematic. You perceives the
>> shills
>> or astroturfers to have "started it", and so you feel justified in
>> spreading FUD on Vista, and claim you'll stop when they stop. Well, when
>> I
>> arrived on this message board, I saw you spread FUD, and so I feel
>> justified in correcting any factually false or misleading claims, and
>> claim
>> that I'll stop when you stop.
>
>
> Yes, it's cyclic. Always remember, however, that by posting anti-Linux
> stuff
> in here (or "bringing balance", as Microsoft calls it) people actually
> cross
> the fence and that's when it's called "trolling". See Wikipedia's
> definition
> of the term.
I agree with Wikipedia's definition of trolling:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolling
<quote>
Internet trolling involves a user making comments intended to provoke an
angry response.
</quote>
Notice that the definition is talking about intent, and NOT the comments
themselves. Does anyone from the "pro-Linux" side consider Ghost in the
Machine to be a troll? I assume not. And yet, (s)he will post anti Linux
comments occasionally. Why do we not consider Ghost to be a troll, then?
Because clearly his/her intent is NOT to provoke an angry response, but
rather to promote discussion.
I'm assuming we both agree that pro-Linux stuff is ontopic, and
pro-Vista stuff is off topic. Where we disagree it seems, is that I feel
purely anti-Vista stuff is off topic, but you feel purely anti-Vista stuff
is *on* topic.
As for anti-Linux stuff, whether or not it's on topic really depends on
the context and intent. I think a post like "Here's a problem with Linux,
and here are some possible solutions for it. What do you guys think?" would
be on topic, whereas a post like "Linux sucks. Let's use Vista instead" is
clearly off topic.
Now here's why I added the "purely" modifier to "purely anti-Vista
stuff": Like the anti-Linux stuff, the anti-Vista stuff *could* be made on
topic, if we appended some pro-Linux stuff to it. Compare: "Vista sucks,
here's why." with "Vista sucks, Linux is better, here's why." The former is
NOT Linux advocacy, while the latter is.
>> And then you see my corrections as "singing the merits of Windows",
>> and
>> feel further justified in spreading more FUD, just to "even things out",
>> and thus we're in a locked loop where neither of us will ever stop.
>
>
> Yes, but it's a Linux advocacy group. There's no place here for criticism
> of
> Linux by those whose intent is to destroy it rather than /improve/ it.
> Constructive versus destructive.
Notice though that my corrections are not criticisms of Linux, but
rather criticisms of your post. I'm not saying Linux is bad, I'm saying
you're making factually incorrect statements about Windows.
>> And anyway, do you really see anyone starting a thread saying
>> something
>> positive about Vista in this newsgroup? I don't. Any positive things said
>> about Vista are corrections of something negative (and false) said about
>> Vista. For example, the 10 articles that precede this article are:
>>
>> [News] Windows Vista Ending Fair Use
>> C.O.L.A. Newcomer FAQ and Primer
>> Device Augment and Improve Linux Support
>> Mobile Photo Manager Runs Linux
>> Two Linux Conferences Announced
>> Trouble for Windows/Vista Unfolds from Many Directions
>> Video - Gates Describes Vista 'Innovation' While OS X Shown Doing the
>> Same
>> MySQL Attacks Oracle with Open Source Offering
>> CNN Poll: 97% Will Not Immediately Buy Vista
>> Speculation: Microsoft Could Buy RIM to Challenge Linux, iPhone.
>
>
> Yes, that favours the use of Linux. Would you expect a Linux advocacy to
> discuss how wonderful Vista is and how horribly liberating Linux can be?
I expect a Linux advocacy group to discuss Linux, not Vista.
>> Any thread started about Vista seems to start with a negative
>> statement
>> about Vista (in the very subject line, in fact), and it's quite annoying
>> to
>> have to sift through that to get to the actual Linux advocacy.
>
>
> Remember that the group is intended to advocate Linux.
I think I'm not the one who needs to be reminded this. ;)
> Just because shills
> have been shoved onto this newsgroup and you feel as though there's a
> pro-Windows crowd here doesn't make it okay. It's trolling. Period.
I don't know what you're referring to with "it" in "doesn't make it
okay". In this thread, I've mainly been talking about things which are NOT
okay (i.e. FUD, lies, etc.) I haven't made much mention about what *IS*
okay. So because of your choice of phrasing, I think you may be inferring
more than I intend to imply.
In particular, I haven't said promoting Windows on this newsgroup is
okay. I've mainly been saying lying is not okay.
- Oliver
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