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Re: Hello

Homer wrote:
Verily I say unto thee, that Goblin spake thusly:

1. I actually believe that DRM is a "necessary evil" since people
can't be trusted to act responsibly and obey the copyright laws
(rightly or wrongly there exists copyright laws and law is not
something we can "cherry pick" the bits we like)

That's a dangerous attitude, since it promotes the idea that laws should
never be challenged, no matter how unjust. There are laws in various
countries that (sometimes) violently oppress people. Should we just
ignore that?

IMO, laws like the DMCA, copyrights in general, and in particular
illicit devices such as DRM, are an unacceptable subjugation of our
ability to exchange knowledge in an environment of academic and cultural
freedom. Note: this does /not/ preclude people being paid for their
work. There is more besides the false dichotomy of Draconian
restrictions to secure an income from the creative and academic arts.

2. I support proprietary software that offers value for money and is
 "fit for purpose"  - check my blog if you doubt that.

That's fine for people who value convenience over autonomy and freedom,
but sooner or later those same people who displayed such apathy towards
their freedom, will find themselves greatly inconvenienced by the lack
of it. Think "Abandonware", for example. As an ex-Amigan, I'm sure you
must know what I'm talking about.

3. I don't believe in a 100% FOSS computing model.  I don't believe
it could work.

But the fact is it /already/ works, as I, and many others who only use
Free Software can testify.

You seem to be conceding defeat without even trying.

4. I don't want mass migration to the Linux platform (lest we end up
 with a Windows type product) and I would like to see (in my ideal
world) an equal balance of market penetration between all platforms.

On this point I strongly agree, but with the single caveat that each of
those disparate platforms should nonetheless be licensed freely. From a
/technical/ standpoint, there are many reasons to support a diverse
ecology of computing platforms - innovation being the main one. There is
also the question of security, since viruses do not propagate easily
within a heterogeneous environment (another reason to avoid Mono, and
yes even Java). Finally, more choice means better competition, better
prices, and more customer satisfaction (the long tail).

Again, this would not preclude earning a profit from the sale of this
freely licensed software.

5. I believe "software freedom" should extend to developers in that
they are free to release their software as they please (sell it if
they wish - point 3).

Well this is /already/ true, so no such extension is required.

However, be aware that if you, as a developer, exercise /your/ "freedom"
to subjugate /others'/ freedom, then you are not really exercising a
right of freedom at all, but actually an abuse of power.

From a practical perspective, freedom is not really freedom at all,
unless it is /protected/ from subjugation. This is the essence of
democracy, the general principle that you are free to do anything you
want, /except/ cause harm to others. So it is with the GPL. The BSD does
/not/ offer this protection, and allows software to /become/ subjugated.
Proprietary software /begins/ and /ends/ with the principle of
subjugation. By choosing either a non-free or unprotected license for
your work, you are only giving yourself freedom by taking it away from
others.

/Selling/ software, or anything else, is irrelevant to this point.
Freely licensed works can be, and /are/, sold all the time. One need not
subjugate others in order to earn a living from creative or academic arts.

6. Whilst I don't know the view of Roy or anyone else in the FOSS in
 regards to this point, I would like to add that I am completely
against piracy 100% no questions asked.

That's a fallacy, since this assumes copyright is morally defensible,
and thus dissent against those laws is not. This is essentially the same
argument as point 1. Note that dissent is not synonymous with crime.

7. I don't believe MONO is a patent trap

It is a patent minefield, but then so is all other software. The
difference here is that the /patentor/ is one with a documented
agressive agenda of opposition to GNU/Linux and Free Software. That
isn't true, to anywhere near the same extent, with /other/ proprietary
software vendors.

but I am against it because IMO its another example (c#) of the
de-skilling of the coder in favor of more user friendly high-level
languages.

I disagree. Although I believe it /is/ essential to become proficient at
lower level languages /first/, in order to get a more complete
understanding of how the system really works, and to understand how
various /higher/ level language abstractions relate to that system, so
they can be verified for optimisation and security, and even customised
and extended, the benefits of higher level languages are greater
portability and faster production. This is an especially important
consideration for the commercial products you seem to favour, but can
also be of great benefit to Free Software that might otherwise stagnate,
if the complexity of the program is greater than the available
development resources.

I do have other reasons for not wanting an involvement with MONO, but
thats probably the main one.

My main reason is that it spreads adoption of Microsoft's standards and
development paradigm, which it then abuses to dominate the market, thus
excluding other platforms. This would be bad enough taken in isolation,
but consider that the company which benefits most from this arrangement
is one of the world's most disreputable, and the outcome is totally
unacceptable.

Is it so wrong to look to the past and highlight the days of the A500
and Devpac2 as examples of talented coders?

Bare-metal programming was an exciting challenge, back in the pioneering
days of the so-called Golden Age, where it was absolutely necessary to
squeeze every last hertz from the processor.

But times change.

These days it's more important to meet the deadline, or "release early
and often", and to produce code that is actually /maintainable/ through
many generations ... *and* hardware architecture changes.

Assembly won't give you that. High level languages will.

But if you still yearn for a taste of the old days, try this:

http://www.menuetos.net

I thought that was the remit of the Windows user who blindly supports
the platform without even trying anything else.

You forget that, thanks to Microsoft's monopoly, it's highly unlikely
that any given GNU/Linux user has never at least tried Windows, since it
comes preinstalled on nearly every PC in the world.


Hi!

WOW. Thanks for the comprehensive debate! Firstly that link is great, thank you so much, ive never come across that before.

I will address your points individually since I didn't expect anyone to reply and my "bullet points" were are very vague summary of views.

DRM: The point I've always made about DRM is that rightly or wrongly we have copyright laws. Since I don't think law is something we can cherry pick the best bits of, I accept that DRM is required to enforce/protect the interests of those operating under those laws. The need for DRM (IMO) only came about because people did ignore the Copyright laws, if everyone had obeyed them DRM would be a useless exercise.

I did not put my opinions of copyright law forward fully, however Ive always been of the opinion just like speed cameras, we cannot simply break the speeding rules just because we find them unjust. I know in the past laws have been overturned with similar actions, but these were far more important (IMO) than the copyright of media (or in my case) speeding.

Now, if I may, I will put the piracy issue into my next point.
Its very easy to highlight Sony, Warner Brothers etc when talking about huge profits and the targetting of the "little person" (filesharers) but there is a whole other area that is being ignored. If you take a look at a piece of software called "Crayon Physics" it was written by one chap in his bedroom. He sells the product (which I'm sure has done quite well) but the game is pirated massively on BT. He's not some huge company with team of shills on the net. He's one person trying to make some money. Unfortunately in respect of the copyright laws we cannot single one person out. They have to apply to everyone or no-one. I completely agree with you when you say:

"this does /not/ preclude people being paid for their
work. There is more besides the false dichotomy of Draconian
restrictions to secure an income from the creative and academic arts."

But in many cases its not simple (IMO). I will highlight this point in a little while when I come onto the subject of proprietary:

Quote "That's fine for people who value convenience over autonomy and freedom, but sooner or later those same people who displayed such apathy towards their freedom, will find themselves greatly inconvenienced by the lack of it."

and I find myself agreeing with that too. What I will say though is that it comes down to choice at the time. For me "software freedom" is about choice and as I was saying to 7 a while ago, its difficult to imagine how a return would be made from GTA4 and its massive budget if the thing was open source.

In respect of the Amiga it is a good example, I can't argue with that, however if you have a company that wants to release something in a certain way, the consumer has the choice to either buy it or not, for me piracy is not a fair option simply because the user disagrees.

The 100% FOSS computing model was maybe badly put by myself. I too know firms that have a 100% FOSS model (ive documented them on my blog) What I meant was on a global scale. I think there will always be a need for custom software and for example, if a person requires say software to control/monitor custom equipment in their business, I dont think they will hang around sourceforge on the off chance its made, that to me is where proprietary will step in. Thats why in some form proprietary will always exist in my opinion.

Ive often said that I believe Microsoft's future will be in custom software solutions for industry...that remains to be seen. In the meantime, I, like everyone else I hope uses FOSS because it is the best solution for them, not simply because its free. I see the freeness of the software I use as an added bonus. We all do our bit to highlight the advantages of FOSS to users, but at the end of the day people have their own choices to make based on their own needs/ideals.

In respect of myself the only proprietary software I run at the moment is WoW and that to me is fine. To be fair, I'm winding that up in favour of a FOSS rpg, not because its free, but because its better.

Quote "Well this is /already/ true, so no such extension is required."

Agreed (hence the point 3 bit at the end) I was merely justifying my belief in the "right" for developers to release software as they see fit without having their work pirated.

Quote "By choosing either a non-free or unprotected license for
your work, you are only giving yourself freedom by taking it away from
others."

Very true and its up to the consumers to make a judgement on if that loss of freedom is worth the license. Consumers often forget that in most cases they have the power.

Quote "/Selling/ software, or anything else, is irrelevant to this point.
Freely licensed works can be, and /are/, sold all the time. One need not
subjugate others in order to earn a living from creative or academic arts."

Completely agree again. But I've always believed that this ethos was not a blanket one that could be used to cover all media/products.

Going back to GTA4, if that was released under gpl3 how would a return be made large enough to cover the developers initial costs?

Quote "Note that dissent is not synonymous with crime."

True, and most of the cases of copyright have been dealt with in the civil courts not the criminal ones (in the UK) I think it depends on your take on the actual software that is protected by copyright. I agree that certain firms actions are disgraceful and users are effectively being "robbed" of hard earned money, simply to be told "yeah, sorry about that....get the next version it will be better"

We have all seen the allegations against some of these proprietary firms, but then for me there would never be a dissent against say Microsoft and its proprietary nature, because even if they gave away their product for free, I wouldn't be interested.

Quote "You forget that, thanks to Microsoft's monopoly, it's highly unlikely
that any given GNU/Linux user has never at least tried Windows, since it
comes preinstalled on nearly every PC in the world."

Forget? I was challenged over making exactly the same point on a previous discussion! :)

I won't comment on your C# opinions since you covered everything really there.

Thanks so much for engaging in an interesting debate, or several debates in one!

Kind regards

--
Goblin
"I refute the claim I am one of the Linux unwashed, I take a shower once a year whether I need it or not."
bytes4free@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Visit the blog of Goblin (Openbytes)
http://www.openbytes.wordpress.com
"Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui."

Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/_Goblin

Or catch me on: #boycottnovell #linuxoutlaws on Freenode.net!


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