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Re: Code of Conduct complaint about Linus's comments at DC14 :: Respect

On Thu, Sep 04, 2014 at 09:24:58AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Paul Hedderly <paul@xxxxxxx> writes:

I'm loathed to post this, but I feel I have to, aware that I'm a hypocrite.

> > Agreed. And my whole point is that Debian and LT are talking at cross
> > purposes because of a different focus on a narrowing favoured definition
> > of the word.
> No, that's clearly not true. 

I tried to show as clearly as I could that LT is using a different meaning to
what you are meaning so I'm not sure how it's clearly not true.

It is clear that you can't tollerate LT because he has a different opinion of
what is appropriate in regards to how others should be treated. And I suspect I
agree - although much of what he says is obviously not meant litterally
- it is banter that is meant to be funny whilst also making a point, directed
  at people he knows _and_ respects (in the classical sense).

But I was trying to highlight that the phrase "people need to earn respect" is
fully in line with the main dictionary definitions of respect and that the
CoC use of the word is different and a secondary use.

> Linus does not treat people with respect by
> my definition of the word.  He treats people with aggressive contempt in a
> way that no human being should ever be treated.  Maybe I should use some
> word other than respect for that, but regardless, he is not meeting that
> standard, and that's unacceptable.  And should be unacceptable inside
> Debian.
> That disagreement is not going to go away by changing the definitions.

Two phrases in that startled me:

  "Linus does not treat people with respect by _my_ definition of the word."
	"he is not meeting that standard, and that's unacceptable."

I'll tread carefully here - I really do not want to offend.
I feel the above statements could be argued to fit this definition:

	NOUN : A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions

And I think bigotry is sometimes a good thing. I am intollerant towards people
who think its ok to murder or rape, or perform FGM etc etc. So I am a bigot,
and I would hope most people are bigotted towards such things. And for the
record - the RMS/FSF is intollerant towards companies and people who don't
share his/its opions - They _are_ bigoted. Thats just a fact, and not
necessarilly a bad thing.

And the truth is, I am quite intollerant of other options that other people
have, but I try in most cases to be intollerant of the opinion, but not the

The problem I have with the quotes above in this case is that - "not meeting
that standard, and that's unacceptable." depends on an absolute - that some
standard or other is an absolute that all people must abide by.

Where do absolutes come from? Well, not from concensus. This thread has
demonstrated that.

I do believe in absolutes - I'm a Christian and believe in a God who in his
kindness has given us clear absolutes because he knows how we function best.

But in Debian we don't recognise God or His absolutes. So I'm wondering who
gets to define this one.

I'm probably going to get banned for life now for having opinions. I'd better
just go crawl under my rock again.


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