On 2014-09-19 21:20:34, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 12:05:13PM -0400, Antoine Beaupré wrote:
>> Interestingly, that's exactly the point people are making about
>> Linux. To paraphrase, the general idea out there seems to be that the
>> Linux kernel is Linus' project, so he's allowed to be as brutal and
>> abusive as he wants on the mailing lists.
>
> If Linus were brutal and abusive as you appear to think he his, I
> don't think Linux would have been successful.
[good point, granted.]
>> Why is the argument acceptable to ban sensitive people from projects but
>> not "thick skin abusers"?
>
> I think the argument is either it should be acceptable for both cases,
> or not acceptable for both cases. The people who are arguing for
> banning people whom they think are assholes and saying that it's OK to
> do that because assholes can found their own projects, are making
> exact same argument that normally people who are arguing for political
> correctness wring their hands about when it is used regarding people
> who are overly sensitive.
>
> Personally, I think the argument is one that I don't find particularly
> compelling regardless of which position it is used to try to justify.
I think I agree there - banning both "sensitives" and "thick skins" will
simply mean that no one will be left, so I can hardly agree with that
argument. And on the contrary, tolerating both usually means developping
a culture of offensiveness that makes people unwelcome.
So it's not a symmetrical situation. I know we people tend towards
symmetry and cleaner designs, but it's not the way people work in social
contexts unfortunately. :)
Now, it's true that I can't speak for the LKML or the Linux kernel
community at large, being biased towards the splashy news I hear of the
latest Linus rant. But I can certainly speak of the various attempts of
people to join *this* very community, where pretty vocal trolls
frequently harrass people on mailing lists. They are not as proeminent
public figures as Linus, so it doesn't hit the hacker news, but they are
still there.
And I think just tolerating that kind of behavior is unacceptable,
period. This is why we made that code of conduct, and this is why
there's an anti-harrassment team, and we should support that.
In other words, the response to abuse shouldn't be "the victim should
leave" but rather "we should deal with the perpetrator in some way". I
don't care so much if it means a simple reprimand, a ban, or a free
therapy consulting session, but we need to do something, in proportion
to our capabilities, obviously.
Sorry for keeping that thread alive again, i guess.
A.
--
Lorsque l'on range des objets dans des tiroirs, et que l'on a plus
d'objets que de tiroirs, alors un tiroir au moins contient deux
objets.
- Lejeune-Dirichlet, Peter Gustav
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