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Re: Call for moderation and mediation: debian-live vs. debian-live-ng

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 23:53:16 +0100
Thomas Goirand <zigo@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> This naming thing is a joke. The problem isn't the name, of course.
> The problem is Iain writing:
> "live-build has been deprecated by debian-cd, and live-build-ng is
> replacing  it. In a purely Debian context at least, live-build is
> deprecated. live-build-ng is being developed in collaboration with
> debian-cd and D-I."

That was my text. Discussed and agreed within the debian-cd team.

> Though later on, he writes:
> "The naming of the package live-build-ng was not intended to serve as
> a request for live-build development to stop"
> The naming is probably not too offensive. Though writing that
> live-build is deprecated and replaced is, and that's the bit which
> made Daniel stop live-build.
> Correct me if I am wrong here, but as much as I know, Daniel has
> always been there to produce the live images the day of the release,
> and he seemed to very much enjoy publishing the Live image and being
> part of the release process. 

I'm sorry, Thomas, but you are wrong there. Please re-read Steve's
email talking about random breakages in live-build, Steve having to
personally do the fixes to live-build during release weekends, several
Debian releases and point releases with no noticeable support from the
live-team - it has been Steve *on his own* fixing up live to actually
get the releases out the door.

So, yes, the debian-cd team - in support of Steve - implemented a
method which can provide a reliable, testable, fully supported
replacement for the one part of live which repeatedly proved to be
fragile, unsupported and untested - live-build.

> > [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2015/11/msg00132.html  
> In this message, I see that Iain is still saying that his software
> goal is to take over live-build, and that at some point, it will
> replace it.

It's not just Iain's software, it is the software developed by the
debian-cd team to take unnecessary load off Steve. Iain has helped tie
the vmdebootstrap support into a live image - using parts of the
debian-live support - and implemented the missing UEFI support which
the debian-cd team requested in 2013. It took under 2 days for Iain to
develop and test that support. It took me the majority of debcamp in
Heidelberg to get the underlying support into vmdebootstrap, with a
very large amount of input from Steve.

Do not try to pin this on Iain alone just because he was the one who
was awake and responsive at the time - as I've already said, I fell ill
during the minidebconf and was unable to respond to the ensuing
discussions. I took time off work as a result and still have some
lingering illness/tiredness. Steve was recovering lost sleep after
organising the minidebconf. Anything coming out of this comes under the
debian-cd team. The deprecation of live-build, the name and the
implementation of the support to replace live-build were all discussed
within the team, during the minidebconf at Cambridge and the
vmdebootstrap sprint which took place at the same venue. The work was
done to provide reliable, testable support to make it easier for Steve
to get the work of the debian-cd team completed during release
weekends. To provide tools which can be tested in advance, which behave
the same way with the same config and which are fully supported and
have required support for things like UEFI.
> So to me, there's nothing changed in the original problem. The excuse
> for the naming wont change anything. Whatever Daniel does, live-build
> will be taken over, and the live images will be built without him, by
> the debian-cd team. And he has nothing to say about it.
> Gosh, am I the only one who sees that?!?

No, you're not. That is the entire point. live-build has proven to be
unusable for the official Debian live images. A replacement has been
needed since before the Jessie release but Steve struggled on with the
missing UEFI support and the utterly broken live-build tool. The sprint
provided a way to replace live-build and the debian-cd team - in order
to actually make the workload of the debian-cd team over release
weekends actually sane - expect to use it instead of live-build,
providing the current experimental images test out ok.
> So more or less, what Steve has written. Just letting him go this way
> without even a word for him is not correct.

I'm not sure you've actually understood what Steve wrote.

live-build has proven to not be fit for purpose, it needed to be
replaced. That work took place at the minidebconf.


Neil Williams

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